Feud’s Chris Chalk on taking part in Baldwin vs Capote and making it look simple

James Baldwin is, to place it mildly, foundational. Oft-quoted and tailored throughout media, Baldwin’s work nonetheless types the backbone of our trendy understanding of racial and sexual liberation, but — maybe out of reverence — he’s hardly ever been portrayed dramatically on-screen. Chris Chalk, in different phrases, had monumental footwear to fill in portraying the beloved author, who, as a well-documented orator, many Individuals are intimately acquainted with. Chalk takes on the problem with aplomb, giving a scene-stealing flip on this week’s episode of Feud: Capote vs. The Swans.

Within the episode, titled “The Secret Internal Lives of Swans,” Chalk’s Baldwin visits Truman Capote (Tom Hollander) to shake the author out of his near-suicidal malaise following the publication of Capote’s essay exposing the scandals of his socialite pals. The 2 spend a day roaming New York having a wide-ranging dialog chopping on the core of Feud’s themes: the shallow performances of the rich, the thinly veiled racism and bigotry underpinning excessive society, and the artist’s responsibility in portraying them.

Sitting down for a Zoom dialog with Polygon, Chalk — an exuberant and loquacious presence — contemplated loads of the identical issues, speaking about Baldwin’s legacy and imagined pressure between each literary giants.

This interview has been edited and condensed for readability.

Polygon: I do know when the casting was introduced you mentioned you’d at all times wished to painting Baldwin. He’s somebody we haven’t actually seen on display screen in an expert context a lot. Did that make your job tougher, simpler? Is there something you wished to perform with this little time you’ve got?

Chris Chalk: I don’t assume it was tougher or simpler that nobody else has performed him. I believe that I took in that because the gravity of how vital it was. I believe that he’s an individual that folks don’t toy with. One of many issues I panicked about — not panic, I’m being hyperbolic — however the factor that was stressing me was, the made-up stress, was like: No one touches him and everybody likes him. Throughout his time — he was, , an brazenly homosexual, effeminate Black man — he couldn’t be the most important a part of the Black Energy motion. So he’s off in Paris, however everybody nonetheless preferred him. And we like him even an increasing number of right this moment as we change into a kinder society that’s going, Oh my god, this man had so many good factors. And we weren’t listening even then. He continues to be a instructor.

So, yeah, man; tons of stress, tons of pleasure, tons of, like — it’s not a check, however seeing how, with the time I’m blessed with, how nicely can I embody this man whom I so adore, with out being in such adoration that I make him non-human? You already know what I imply? And that was the fantastic thing about this chance is, not an excessive amount of time in order that I couldn’t get too in my head. And with nice assist comes this wonderful iteration of this man all of us love.

The way in which that you simply smoke — was that lifted from him or was that you simply?

Every thing! Every thing — I did my perfect to do the best way that James would do it. So something that he bodily did, I’d. I regarded via clips — [and] he’s going to be very totally different with Capote than he’s going to be with Maya Angelou, as a result of there’s a sisterhood virtually. With Black girls he relaxes in a totally totally different manner. When he’s in white areas he’s a special manner, when he’s in queer areas — he’s not presenting himself otherwise, there’s simply totally different freedoms. So I did my perfect to search out him in each single atmosphere with a view to not mimic it however honor it to the most effective of my skills.

I do wish to discuss to you slightly bit about working with Tom Hollander, as a result of he does one thing very troublesome for an actor, which is to present a really giving efficiency, to obtain when you are available as Baldwin. You’re each taking part in characters who’ve been very nicely documented on digicam with very explicit mannerisms or well-known mannerisms. How do you calibrate for one thing like that?

Properly, the wonder is we each are theater folks. So so far as my coaching: That’s the gig. The gig is discovering myself in another character, the gig is doing a little physicality, the gig is doing a little vocal work. And utilizing no matter means essential to honor the character’s perspective and their drive.

With James, it’s such as you’re saying, one, we’ve recognized him for broad age teams, too. So a few of that was working with Jerome to isolate the age, to isolate the tones and the tonality we wished to do, working with the motion coach, it was isolating the actions, as a result of he undoubtedly obtained form of heavier, and slightly bit droopy, or as he obtained older and slightly bit extra folded ahead, as one may typing over a desk long-term.

With that form of assist it’s very easy to stroll into any character. However a few of the fantastic thing about James is: It’s actually particular. So so long as I do the work, put in my two, three hours a day of searching for it in me, not less than I shall be honoring who he’s.

And it’s cool to see him simply work together with Capote! The episode to me felt like form of an argument between the 2 males about what Capote’s work does. There’s this unbelievable line the place he calls Capote a thesaurus of American nausea, amongst different issues. Do you assume the 2 males agree about what Capote’s doing?

No! No, no, no — I believe that’s why James is required. As a result of Capote is trapped between the glitter and glamour, and his ethical obligation to be the elite storyteller that he’s. I believe they share an identical perspective. However Capote, , he indulges — I imply, James is a drinker and a smoker, too. However he was at all times closely centered on what wanted to be finished, he would isolate, go off [to] this snowy winter place when he’s like, I’m severe, I’m going to put in writing. He goes and he isolates, whereas Truman, , is throwing them again and he needs to essentially be accepted — which isn’t his job. His job is to not be accepted by the Swans, however to disclose them and to disclose to us this factor that we’re worshipping, displaying us the reality about it.

I imply, in the event that they agreed it will be probably the most boring scene on this planet. However as a result of James is available in, and thru numerous techniques — I imply, I believe he begins with a relatively tender of, like, Oh, that is so cute. Oh, that is good. After which by the tip he’s like, Stand up off your ass. And do you a job, I’m so sick of this sport, we’ve been taking part in this sport, you weren’t actually listening. And now I’m going to inform you precisely what you want to do. And I believe that’s form of the penultimate second that it takes that a lot to shake Capote out of this, his being mesmerized by the concern of shedding what is just not vital. I believe James is actually attempting to give attention to what’s vital. And you may be the star you at all times need it to be versus simply being welcomed as their little canine getting the, , slightly tray of meals. However what’s that basically?

And it’s such an important episode as a result of to me it doesn’t look like Baldwin has a single motivation; there’s loads of issues going via his head within the scene. A part of it’s morbid curiosity, proper?

Like, what are they doing? As a result of who is aware of on this world, this actuality that Ryan and John have created? Perhaps James is desirous to, like, You informed me sufficient, I’ll do it myself. Perhaps a part of it’s like, You’re my analysis into this world, as a result of these folks won’t ever let me into their world.

So yeah, I believe there’s a curiosity. After which as James sees the state that Truman’s in, it’s evaluating his state to his capability and being like, Get up, man, get up, you’re there. You’re in the course of what may very well be your best contribution to society, and also you’re pumping the brakes. Come on, buddy.

And as he says: There’s a commonality between the 2 males. The place they’re members of a really small membership, proper? The homosexual males of letters.

And there’s obligation to that membership! We inform these tales. We honor our sexuality, and we don’t cover — we don’t cover, sir. And he’s hiding. You already know, [Baldwin] form of mocks him, like: No, sweetie. You’re not gonna scare me. You’re not gonna throw me off my sport. I’m right here to repair you. No matter that is, Don’t get it twisted. I’m right here to repair you — or information you, or hope to wake you up.

That’s form of the enjoyable of the power Baldwin brings, as a result of he’s at all times an intense thinker and a strong speaker; that’s what he’s been recognized for. However he involves this episode, from a spot of I do know what these folks actually are. And also you’re simply discovering out now. The factor I discover compelling about Baldwin coming to this — and likewise the Capote story inside the wider arc of the present, proper, since you’re coming midstream right here — is how each of those males function in these rarefied areas the place they’ll tolerate them so long as they behave. And as soon as they get out of line, , the bias is huge, buddy.

Yeah there’s guidelines of habits. I imply, not that it’s totally different now! To be trustworthy. However like, these two homosexual dudes are nonetheless alive, first off, miraculously. And so to be so daring, it is sensible that Truman’s afraid. Like he’s within the lap of luxurious. Like after all, I don’t wish to lose that. However these are additionally individuals who disappear folks. These aren’t good people who I’m messing with right here.

A part of the wrestle for me in reviewing the present, writing about it, is convincing folks at a time there’s a well-earned exhaustion and disgust on the world of the white and rich, episodes like this one are ones the place I wish to seize you and be like, You see? Because of this!

Because of this! I do assume, what a intelligent factor to have finished, proper? It appears as in case you’re celebrating these individuals who had been equally nice as they had been terrible. After which they flip it; with this episode they go, It’s white folks stuff, proper? That is some wealthy, white, elitism, imply folks stuff, and it’s your job to cease attempting to be like them. However to show them. I really like the best way it’s written. I really like that this episode shakes the viewers and goes, What are you taking a look at? What did you come right here for? We tricked you. Now you’ve obtained to cope with: These are simply folks. These are folks with a lot energy that they will do issues that they shouldn’t do.

If there’s a takeaway you need folks to have from this present, from this episode, what about it felt very important to painting this man and inform this story now?

I strive to not concern myself with what the viewers takes away, however this one is barely totally different. As a result of I do assume we’re in dire want of letting, like, selecting our leaders extra properly, and selecting our spokespeople extra properly. There’s a lot noise, and so many individuals speaking — and on such a giant scale with the Instagrams, and the TikToks, and the social media — that we’ve to be much more selective about who we’re asking to do what.

If we’re attempting to evolve morally and intellectually and spiritually as a society, maybe we should always hear stronger to these voices. We do all of this honorific. Oh, James mentioned this. MLK mentioned this, Gandhi mentioned this — however individuals are saying it now. However we, for some purpose, don’t honor them as a lot. I’ve usually seen them demonized for having the very same perspective as somebody who’s been lifeless for 50 years. So if we might take away that we’ve obtained some James Baldwins proper now. If we’re prepared to do the work of training ourselves a bit extra, and being prepared to be weak sufficient to be corrected, then we might actually advance in a a lot [better] manner than it looks like we’re advancing proper now.

When Capote and Baldwin transfer into the bar, that’s the place I believe their dynamic takes their most compelling flip for me. Since you see form of a mannequin for clever discourse the place you possibly can respect one another. However they acknowledge that they’ve known as one another’s concepts bullshit. And also you don’t actually see in the actual world — you see it extra in artwork, which is nice — however like, two good folks simply going at it and simply uproariously disagreeing.

Isn’t it one thing stunning to nonetheless respect somebody as a result of they’ve finished loads of work to have that perspective? And so it’s OK that we disagree, and it’s OK that you simply assume I’m bullshit — I believe you’re bullshit, in some methods. However the confidence we are able to study from that is the boldness to personal it. And know that we’re not going to agree on the whole lot. And a few of my issues that I disagree with you on will harm your emotions. However I don’t imply no hurt. It’s simply my life led me to assume this, and I’m tremendous open to listening to what you assume as a result of I belief that you simply’re a wise dude. And perhaps collectively, we are able to provide you with some form of common thought. I imply, what a set of courageous dudes — and picture once they had been doing it! You’re getting executed, you’re getting disappeared very, very simply. And if they will do it, man, what the hell are we ready for, eh?

Feud: Capote vs. The Swans airs new episodes each Thursday on FX and Hulu.

James Baldwin is, to place it mildly, foundational. Oft-quoted and tailored throughout media, Baldwin’s work nonetheless types the backbone of our trendy understanding of racial and sexual liberation, but — maybe out of reverence — he’s hardly ever been portrayed dramatically on-screen. Chris Chalk, in different phrases, had monumental footwear to fill in portraying the beloved author, who, as a well-documented orator, many Individuals are intimately acquainted with. Chalk takes on the problem with aplomb, giving a scene-stealing flip on this week’s episode of Feud: Capote vs. The Swans.

Within the episode, titled “The Secret Internal Lives of Swans,” Chalk’s Baldwin visits Truman Capote (Tom Hollander) to shake the author out of his near-suicidal malaise following the publication of Capote’s essay exposing the scandals of his socialite pals. The 2 spend a day roaming New York having a wide-ranging dialog chopping on the core of Feud’s themes: the shallow performances of the rich, the thinly veiled racism and bigotry underpinning excessive society, and the artist’s responsibility in portraying them.

Sitting down for a Zoom dialog with Polygon, Chalk — an exuberant and loquacious presence — contemplated loads of the identical issues, speaking about Baldwin’s legacy and imagined pressure between each literary giants.

This interview has been edited and condensed for readability.

Polygon: I do know when the casting was introduced you mentioned you’d at all times wished to painting Baldwin. He’s somebody we haven’t actually seen on display screen in an expert context a lot. Did that make your job tougher, simpler? Is there something you wished to perform with this little time you’ve got?

Chris Chalk: I don’t assume it was tougher or simpler that nobody else has performed him. I believe that I took in that because the gravity of how vital it was. I believe that he’s an individual that folks don’t toy with. One of many issues I panicked about — not panic, I’m being hyperbolic — however the factor that was stressing me was, the made-up stress, was like: No one touches him and everybody likes him. Throughout his time — he was, , an brazenly homosexual, effeminate Black man — he couldn’t be the most important a part of the Black Energy motion. So he’s off in Paris, however everybody nonetheless preferred him. And we like him even an increasing number of right this moment as we change into a kinder society that’s going, Oh my god, this man had so many good factors. And we weren’t listening even then. He continues to be a instructor.

So, yeah, man; tons of stress, tons of pleasure, tons of, like — it’s not a check, however seeing how, with the time I’m blessed with, how nicely can I embody this man whom I so adore, with out being in such adoration that I make him non-human? You already know what I imply? And that was the fantastic thing about this chance is, not an excessive amount of time in order that I couldn’t get too in my head. And with nice assist comes this wonderful iteration of this man all of us love.

The way in which that you simply smoke — was that lifted from him or was that you simply?

Every thing! Every thing — I did my perfect to do the best way that James would do it. So something that he bodily did, I’d. I regarded via clips — [and] he’s going to be very totally different with Capote than he’s going to be with Maya Angelou, as a result of there’s a sisterhood virtually. With Black girls he relaxes in a totally totally different manner. When he’s in white areas he’s a special manner, when he’s in queer areas — he’s not presenting himself otherwise, there’s simply totally different freedoms. So I did my perfect to search out him in each single atmosphere with a view to not mimic it however honor it to the most effective of my skills.

I do wish to discuss to you slightly bit about working with Tom Hollander, as a result of he does one thing very troublesome for an actor, which is to present a really giving efficiency, to obtain when you are available as Baldwin. You’re each taking part in characters who’ve been very nicely documented on digicam with very explicit mannerisms or well-known mannerisms. How do you calibrate for one thing like that?

Properly, the wonder is we each are theater folks. So so far as my coaching: That’s the gig. The gig is discovering myself in another character, the gig is doing a little physicality, the gig is doing a little vocal work. And utilizing no matter means essential to honor the character’s perspective and their drive.

With James, it’s such as you’re saying, one, we’ve recognized him for broad age teams, too. So a few of that was working with Jerome to isolate the age, to isolate the tones and the tonality we wished to do, working with the motion coach, it was isolating the actions, as a result of he undoubtedly obtained form of heavier, and slightly bit droopy, or as he obtained older and slightly bit extra folded ahead, as one may typing over a desk long-term.

With that form of assist it’s very easy to stroll into any character. However a few of the fantastic thing about James is: It’s actually particular. So so long as I do the work, put in my two, three hours a day of searching for it in me, not less than I shall be honoring who he’s.

And it’s cool to see him simply work together with Capote! The episode to me felt like form of an argument between the 2 males about what Capote’s work does. There’s this unbelievable line the place he calls Capote a thesaurus of American nausea, amongst different issues. Do you assume the 2 males agree about what Capote’s doing?

No! No, no, no — I believe that’s why James is required. As a result of Capote is trapped between the glitter and glamour, and his ethical obligation to be the elite storyteller that he’s. I believe they share an identical perspective. However Capote, , he indulges — I imply, James is a drinker and a smoker, too. However he was at all times closely centered on what wanted to be finished, he would isolate, go off [to] this snowy winter place when he’s like, I’m severe, I’m going to put in writing. He goes and he isolates, whereas Truman, , is throwing them again and he needs to essentially be accepted — which isn’t his job. His job is to not be accepted by the Swans, however to disclose them and to disclose to us this factor that we’re worshipping, displaying us the reality about it.

I imply, in the event that they agreed it will be probably the most boring scene on this planet. However as a result of James is available in, and thru numerous techniques — I imply, I believe he begins with a relatively tender of, like, Oh, that is so cute. Oh, that is good. After which by the tip he’s like, Stand up off your ass. And do you a job, I’m so sick of this sport, we’ve been taking part in this sport, you weren’t actually listening. And now I’m going to inform you precisely what you want to do. And I believe that’s form of the penultimate second that it takes that a lot to shake Capote out of this, his being mesmerized by the concern of shedding what is just not vital. I believe James is actually attempting to give attention to what’s vital. And you may be the star you at all times need it to be versus simply being welcomed as their little canine getting the, , slightly tray of meals. However what’s that basically?

And it’s such an important episode as a result of to me it doesn’t look like Baldwin has a single motivation; there’s loads of issues going via his head within the scene. A part of it’s morbid curiosity, proper?

Like, what are they doing? As a result of who is aware of on this world, this actuality that Ryan and John have created? Perhaps James is desirous to, like, You informed me sufficient, I’ll do it myself. Perhaps a part of it’s like, You’re my analysis into this world, as a result of these folks won’t ever let me into their world.

So yeah, I believe there’s a curiosity. After which as James sees the state that Truman’s in, it’s evaluating his state to his capability and being like, Get up, man, get up, you’re there. You’re in the course of what may very well be your best contribution to society, and also you’re pumping the brakes. Come on, buddy.

And as he says: There’s a commonality between the 2 males. The place they’re members of a really small membership, proper? The homosexual males of letters.

And there’s obligation to that membership! We inform these tales. We honor our sexuality, and we don’t cover — we don’t cover, sir. And he’s hiding. You already know, [Baldwin] form of mocks him, like: No, sweetie. You’re not gonna scare me. You’re not gonna throw me off my sport. I’m right here to repair you. No matter that is, Don’t get it twisted. I’m right here to repair you — or information you, or hope to wake you up.

That’s form of the enjoyable of the power Baldwin brings, as a result of he’s at all times an intense thinker and a strong speaker; that’s what he’s been recognized for. However he involves this episode, from a spot of I do know what these folks actually are. And also you’re simply discovering out now. The factor I discover compelling about Baldwin coming to this — and likewise the Capote story inside the wider arc of the present, proper, since you’re coming midstream right here — is how each of those males function in these rarefied areas the place they’ll tolerate them so long as they behave. And as soon as they get out of line, , the bias is huge, buddy.

Yeah there’s guidelines of habits. I imply, not that it’s totally different now! To be trustworthy. However like, these two homosexual dudes are nonetheless alive, first off, miraculously. And so to be so daring, it is sensible that Truman’s afraid. Like he’s within the lap of luxurious. Like after all, I don’t wish to lose that. However these are additionally individuals who disappear folks. These aren’t good people who I’m messing with right here.

A part of the wrestle for me in reviewing the present, writing about it, is convincing folks at a time there’s a well-earned exhaustion and disgust on the world of the white and rich, episodes like this one are ones the place I wish to seize you and be like, You see? Because of this!

Because of this! I do assume, what a intelligent factor to have finished, proper? It appears as in case you’re celebrating these individuals who had been equally nice as they had been terrible. After which they flip it; with this episode they go, It’s white folks stuff, proper? That is some wealthy, white, elitism, imply folks stuff, and it’s your job to cease attempting to be like them. However to show them. I really like the best way it’s written. I really like that this episode shakes the viewers and goes, What are you taking a look at? What did you come right here for? We tricked you. Now you’ve obtained to cope with: These are simply folks. These are folks with a lot energy that they will do issues that they shouldn’t do.

If there’s a takeaway you need folks to have from this present, from this episode, what about it felt very important to painting this man and inform this story now?

I strive to not concern myself with what the viewers takes away, however this one is barely totally different. As a result of I do assume we’re in dire want of letting, like, selecting our leaders extra properly, and selecting our spokespeople extra properly. There’s a lot noise, and so many individuals speaking — and on such a giant scale with the Instagrams, and the TikToks, and the social media — that we’ve to be much more selective about who we’re asking to do what.

If we’re attempting to evolve morally and intellectually and spiritually as a society, maybe we should always hear stronger to these voices. We do all of this honorific. Oh, James mentioned this. MLK mentioned this, Gandhi mentioned this — however individuals are saying it now. However we, for some purpose, don’t honor them as a lot. I’ve usually seen them demonized for having the very same perspective as somebody who’s been lifeless for 50 years. So if we might take away that we’ve obtained some James Baldwins proper now. If we’re prepared to do the work of training ourselves a bit extra, and being prepared to be weak sufficient to be corrected, then we might actually advance in a a lot [better] manner than it looks like we’re advancing proper now.

When Capote and Baldwin transfer into the bar, that’s the place I believe their dynamic takes their most compelling flip for me. Since you see form of a mannequin for clever discourse the place you possibly can respect one another. However they acknowledge that they’ve known as one another’s concepts bullshit. And also you don’t actually see in the actual world — you see it extra in artwork, which is nice — however like, two good folks simply going at it and simply uproariously disagreeing.

Isn’t it one thing stunning to nonetheless respect somebody as a result of they’ve finished loads of work to have that perspective? And so it’s OK that we disagree, and it’s OK that you simply assume I’m bullshit — I believe you’re bullshit, in some methods. However the confidence we are able to study from that is the boldness to personal it. And know that we’re not going to agree on the whole lot. And a few of my issues that I disagree with you on will harm your emotions. However I don’t imply no hurt. It’s simply my life led me to assume this, and I’m tremendous open to listening to what you assume as a result of I belief that you simply’re a wise dude. And perhaps collectively, we are able to provide you with some form of common thought. I imply, what a set of courageous dudes — and picture once they had been doing it! You’re getting executed, you’re getting disappeared very, very simply. And if they will do it, man, what the hell are we ready for, eh?

Feud: Capote vs. The Swans airs new episodes each Thursday on FX and Hulu.